Science vs. Religion

[purifier11]

That's the problem, Frank, people tend to look at God in human terms. People should look at Him in His own terms as God the creator of the universe and not just a god. What is it to people if He destroys or kills millions, He created them and He can do whatever He wants with His creation. If you created or made something for yourself, you can do whatever you want with whatever you did and no one should question you about it. Whether you preserve it or destroy it, it will all be entirely up to you. The only difference between us and God is that we cannot destroy lives since He is the One who gave them. Lives are therefore His creation and not ours for we cannot bring anybody back to life. If He can breath out stars from of His mouth, what is it to others if He can kill millions (or even billions) and bring them back to life again later. He said that He will bring them all back to life again in the future. The earth and the very sea itself where lives were lost will spew those who have died and spit them out with whole bodies, after which, judgment will come. So if He allows the death of somebody now it is possible that He is merely stopping them from doing something terribly wrong like hurting those He loves and protects. Or He allows the death because it is about time for that person to go from this world. Everything is already pre-determined. Remember, the moment we were born, we are all dying and sooner or later death will come for us whether we like it or not. God merely determines who will stay longer and who will go earlier according to His plans but everybody will one day succumb to death. It should not be a big deal when we are all in the same path to death. I can understand that people are afraid to die and they have to blame somebody else for all the misery and pain of life and the fear of not knowing what will happen after death. They do not want to blame themselves so they blame God. One day God will show you the things that you did and you will know that there is no one else to blame but yourself. Look at yourselves for those who deny God, and think for a moment (for the sake of argument) that God truly exist and judgment day will definitely come. All these defiance against God that you are doing now will actually be the very witnesses against you that will put you in a place of eternal suffering. Your rebellious thoughts now will be those very things that will be fanning the flames of hell that will one day engulf your entire body (after you have resurrected in it). You are not only digging your own grave but digging deeper straight to hell. You have everything to loose and you will actually feel losing it for all eternity.

On the other hand, if God does not exist, then whatever I have believed will amount to nothing and my death will just make me disappear like a vapor and I will be non-existent. All we are discussing now will just be hogwash and will be forgotten. I don’t have to feel shame for what I have believed because by then I’ll be gone and I won’t feel a thing. I didn’t gain anything but I also had nothing to loose.

I do not fear death because it is merely a separation from this world and a birth into the spirit world. A promise is waiting for me in the after life and it was prepared for me by a God who cannot lie, an eternal existence with joy and no more suffering. That is the hope that resides in my heart and I claim them by faith. If you do not have those then your heart will be empty. Fear and distrust will slowly creep in and every thing against God will fill the void. You will start to defy God and to justify yourselves you will seek and accuse Him of faults which only humans are capable of doing. And every renewed defiance will build a wall between you and God making it hard for your heart to accept.

[FireStorm]

Purifier your mind seems to be closed to rational thought,you obviously didn't read none of my posts. I have an open mind,and when I was younger i studied different religions to find my place. With each one I came to the point that it don't make sense at all,especailly when one tells me thats just how it is with no definitive answer. I've proved my point with scriptures,and bible falacies being inaccurate and incorrect. Also you say we look at god in human terms, God has proven himself to be very human in nature, his jealousy has killed many, to me for a powerful God he is flawed,and should be above petty human feelings. Jealousy leads to hate which leads to evil. God has proven himself a hypocrite.

I am frustrated at two specific verses in the bible, which applies to this particular topic. The first is the biblical statement that “God is the Alpha and the Omega”. Loosely defined it means the beginning and the end, the all knowing. Which of course implies that all of his actions and the results are fore known to him. I have a real problem with this notion. For if God was to know ahead of time that someday he would send me to hell for being an Atheist, I ask what was the purpose in him creating me in the first place? Was it simply to watch me be tortured? That seems to be the most logical explanation. I can think of no other rational explanation, nor neither has any Christian who I posed this question to. Some people have attempted to tell me that God has a purpose unknown to us, and that we must simply accept his will. Would you keep a friend who commits evil and offers no self-justification or remorse? Of course not, so why is this same judgment not applied to God? It’s seems rather contradictory that this trait is despised in humanity, yet, it is worshiped in religion.

Let’s talk about the lord’s creation of evil, let’s talk about the conception of Satan. This being was created and unleashed by God. Jehovah knew (for he is the all knowing) that at the time of Lucifer’s creation he would eventually become Satan, and spend his existence reeking havoc on man kind. Leading people into criminal activities. Suppose I were to build an evil robot, that I knew would go around torturing and murdering people. Whose fault would it be if I let it loose? Mine or the robot’s? Of course it would be mine, for I created it with that purpose and unleashed it for that purpose. Now I ask you, whose fault is deviltry in the world? Is it the PUPPET Satan or the being that deliberately created Satan’s evil?

One of the criticisms most frequently leveled at me when presenting any of the above arguments has been that I have no right to judge God. A pretty feeble grasp at the straws. Christians proclaim that God is the definition of good. All morality proceeds downwards from him, so it makes no sense to apply moral standards to him. But I must interject. God allowed my ancestors Adam and Eve to eat the fruit from the Tree of Knowledge. Thus, allowing us “to be like gods, and know the difference between good and evil”. This very biblical verse, written in the first book of Genesis, conflicts with the same argument these Christians attempt to use. If we as humans are now capable of knowing good and evil LIKE THE GODS why can't we use our judgment? How can it be lower then God’s if God is the one who claimed that we are like him?

I do not accept the Bible as God’s word because it contains thousand of errancies and contradictions that can not be solved, only rationalized. I refuse to accept Jesus as my personal savior, for his behavior and teachings often expose one who should be escaped and not worshipped. I find the idea that a man had to die for my sins revolting. If God was truly omnipotent he could have simply forgiven us. What kind of deity, would execute one child in order to forgive it’s others? Modern society would call an individual like this sadistic, insane and cruel. Surely, you would not worship a child killer, why do you expect me to? Would you find a judge worthy of the title who would allow my child to be executed in lieu of my sins?
if I believed the Bible were true, I would become a Christian.

There are several reasons for my atheism, the leading of which is the idea of a higher power is not probable in light of current scientific data. The second of which is I do not find the state of the world in accordance with an idea of a loving and merciful higher power.I do not believe in the reality of God, except as a psychological phenomenon, but if I did believe I would not worship that horror. It violates my morality to worship a hypocritical, judgmental, self righteous murderer. In punishment, it could send me to the hell it’s made for those it dislikes, and if there was no other choice but worshiping it, I would walk in to Hell proudly.

[Timq]

purifier11, i must say i'm disappointed you ignored my previous post and decided to preach instead. well lets see what you came up with.

Originally Posted by purifier11

That's the problem, Frank, people tend to look at God in human terms. People should look at Him in His own terms as God the creator of the universe and not just a god.

this is just a cop out. you're saying that God's morality is beyond our comprehension, ain't that convenient?
think for your self for once. you are capable of determining what's right or wrong. even according to your dogma people were endowed with innate morality, isn't adam & eve story all about it?

Originally Posted by purifier11

What is it to people if He destroys or kills millions, He created them and He can do whatever He wants with His creation. If you created or made something for yourself, you can do whatever you want with whatever you did and no one should question you about it. Whether you preserve it or destroy it, it will all be entirely up to you.

why do we punish neglective parents?

Originally Posted by purifier11

The only difference between us and God is that we cannot destroy lives since He is the One who gave them. Lives are therefore His creation and not ours for we cannot bring anybody back to life. If He can breath out stars from of His mouth, what is it to others if He can kill millions (or even billions) and bring them back to life again later. He said that He will bring them all back to life again in the future. The earth and the very sea itself where lives were lost will spew those who have died and spit them out with whole bodies, after which, judgment will come. So if He allows the death of somebody now it is possible that He is merely stopping them from doing something terribly wrong like hurting those He loves and protects. Or He allows the death because it is about time for that person to go from this world.

preaching and speculation.

Originally Posted by purifier11

Everything is already pre-determined.

that's an unusual thing to say for a believer doesn't determinism nullify the concept of free will?

Originally Posted by purifier11

It should not be a big deal when we are all in the same path to death. I can understand that people are afraid to die and they have to blame somebody else for all the misery and pain of life and the fear of not knowing what will happen after death. They do not want to blame themselves so they blame God. One day God will show you the things that you did and you will know that there is no one else to blame but yourself.

atheists don't blame, reject, deny or rebel against God! they simply find no rational reason to believe in one.
believers are the ones who should have a problem God's responsibility since they're the ones believing He created this flawed system.

Originally Posted by purifier11

Look at yourselves for those who deny God, and think for a moment (for the sake of argument) that God truly exist and judgment day will definitely come. All these defiance against God that you are doing now will actually be the very witnesses against you that will put you in a place of eternal suffering. Your rebellious thoughts now will be those very things that will be fanning the flames of hell that will one day engulf your entire body (after you have resurrected in it). You are not only digging your own grave but digging deeper straight to hell. You have everything to loose and you will actually feel losing it for all eternity.

On the other hand, if God does not exist, then whatever I have believed will amount to nothing and my death will just make me disappear like a vapor and I will be non-existent. All we are discussing now will just be hogwash and will be forgotten. I don’t have to feel shame for what I have believed because by then I’ll be gone and I won’t feel a thing. I didn’t gain anything but I also had nothing to loose.

this is pascal's wager argument which has been refuted countless times. just google it.

Originally Posted by purifier11

I do not fear death because it is merely a separation from this world and a birth into the spirit world. A promise is waiting for me in the after life and it was prepared for me by a God who cannot lie, an eternal existence with joy and no more suffering. That is the hope that resides in my heart and I claim them by faith.

clearly you must be afraid of death (as THE END) since you delude your self that death is just a gateway to blissful eternal life.

Originally Posted by purifier11

If you do not have those then your heart will be empty. Fear and distrust will slowly creep in and every thing against God will fill the void. You will start to defy God and to justify yourselves you will seek and accuse Him of faults which only humans are capable of doing. And every renewed defiance will build a wall between you and God making it hard for your heart to accept.

baseless assertions.

[FireStorm]

Originally Posted by purifier11

What is it to people if He destroys or kills millions, He created them and He can do whatever He wants with His creation. If you created or made something for yourself, you can do whatever you want with whatever you did and no one should question you about it. Whether you preserve it or destroy it, it will all be entirely up to you.

What happened to free will? You preach that he is a loving merciful god, but kills millions. You are a hypocrite,and you offer no base facts. Your words are the same words terrorist use. Read your post over about 5 times and you will see lol. Your thoughts are delusional.
I have discovered via my discussions that there are two major forms: the corruption argument and the mercy argument. The former says that those slaughtered were evil and deserving of their fate; the latter says that since they were religiously incorrect, it was a mercy to terminate their existence.

The corruption argument simply does not hold up. The people slaughtered in the Old Testament were almost uniformly blameless (with a few exceptions, of course for instance, the Sodomites violated the conventions of hospitality.) Usually, no justification is offered beyond the fact that since they were of another tribe, it was OK to kill them. It goes with out saying that the hordes of slaughtered children were innocent. (*Quick tip-If God was anti abortion he wouldn’t have ordered the murder of pregnant women and young children.)

As to the mercy argument: If I don’t claim to be suffering, and don’t ask to die, neither you nor any god has the right to decide that you know better. (This would of course be a violation of my free will.) If a person tried to do this to me, I would quite frankly attempt to kill him; if a god tried, well, the only weapon I would have would be withholding my worship. Are you beginning to see why I do not comply with the worship of the Christian God? Most of us, given omnipotence, would be able to do a far better job than Jehovah. What would you do if given omnipotence? If your answer is anything other than “abolish world hunger, disease or save the earth”, there’s something more than a little skewed in your perception of mankind. There is no question that the very balance of life is in peril. To wish for these things doesn’t take “infinite mercy”, just normal compassion and a bit of common sense. God’s supposed infinite mercy is apparently the same thing as no mercy at all.

What makes this particularly unforgivable is that even Jesus’ own standards demand feeding of the poor. See Matthew 25:35, in which it is stated that the blessed feed the hungry, and that the damned do not. I find it funny that God is held blameless, though, for not feeding them. Does not the old saying “practice what you preach” apply to God? Is his lack of action a hypocrisy or a sin? Could it perhaps be both?

Usually, when I bring this up in a discussion, someone says, “No. It is the evil of men that is to blame; they have lots of money and keep it to themselves rather than feeding the poor.” (Funny thing that the Christians who say this are usually conservative.) This argument uses a double standard. Men are held guilty for not feeding the poor, while God is held innocent for doing exactly the same. In fact, it would be far easier for God to feed all the poor with his omnipotence, than for any mortal man to feed even one! Mankind is certainly not blameless here, but it is Jehovah who is the true villain. Another popular rationalization is that life without “challenges” would be boring and dehumanizing, so God does not remove them. The fallacy here is grouping all challenges together. I personally lead a very challenging and satisfying life, but I have not lately had to flee any volcanoes or earthquakes, go without food for a week, or suffer the ravages of some disease. I would be quite happy, in fact, if I never do have to face such challenges as those. There is plenty of room for amelioration of the human condition without making it dull. Does it not defeat the purpose of living life if you are to starve to death?
Suppose you were an omnipotent god, and you demand worship, such as the Christian God. Would you give proof of your existence to those who wished to follow you? I imagine for Jehovah that it would be quite simple to perform a continual sequence of verifiable miracles. It would be quite logical in practice too, for it would keep God’s followers from delusion and doubt. There is no such luck with Jehovah though. He demands absolute fidelity without any demonstration of his existence. The only so called record of his existence is the bible. I think it pretty much goes with out saying that not only is the bible 2,000 years out dated, but it is also very unoriginal. Any Christian who proposes that the bible is indeed evidence for God’s existence is proposing a double standard. For there are many books which claim to be actual accounts of a higher power. With this in mind, why not believe in Allah from the Koran? Could it be because your faith is what determines your belief and not your so called “factual” book?

Let’s examine what faith is. The definition of faith is hope for a circumstance or thing that is not proven to be true. There is no virtue in accepting something on faith, since it may very well be false, and it is clearly not virtuous to believe the false. Faith has also been proven through out history, time and again, that it is equivalent to massive hysteria; IE: Crusades, Burning Times, Inquisitions, Holy Wars, etc. On a grand scale faith, thus far, has only proven to be an intellectual weakness, and a significant barrier to scientific and moral progress. With all of this in mind, how can God possibly expect us to view faith as the greatest way to glorify him, let alone demand this of us?

Most importantly, the point to remember here is that if we don’t believe in him, we go to Hell, and this is a greater evil than a lack of the “virtue” of faith or a stunting of science, or anything else conceivable. If God is truly concerned about the good, he will do what he can to keep us from Hell, and withholding vital information from us is the exact opposite of this

[Tristan]

Frank,

Someday I'll travel to Ney York and have a chat with you about GOD - if you want of course. You need to offer me a place to stay 1st and 2nd I need to pay for the trip.
I have very interesting questions I could propose but my english sucks in writting.
Sometimes it even sucks when I try to convert a idea from Portuguese to English.
Speaking is much easier then writting in any language to express point of views. You can also think all of this is bullshit but whatever :).
I'm quite sure you wont die so soon, in this case we have loads of time. I'm working my ass off to get $$$.

I made to my self many questions in this thread and I got all answered up. Questions made not only by you but also by Serafi who is studies Eistein, LHC and many other studies. I consider myself a converted researcher after 25 years.
Never forget that all religions are lived by men and men has flaws. GOD does exist .

Well its good for me to practice some english and could make your Atheist belief grow or be questioned.

ps: Don't :mobmassacre: me.
ps2: Maybe we can chat on Skype or Oovoo someday.

Regards,
Tiago.

[FireStorm]

What did God do during that eternity before he created everything? If God was all that existed back then, what disturbed the eternal equilibrium and compelled him to create? Was he bored? Was he lonely? God is supposed to be perfect. If something is perfect, it is complete--it needs nothing else. We humans engage in activities because we are pursuing that elusive perfection, because there is disequilibrium caused by a difference between what we are and what we want to be. If God is perfect, there can be no disequilibrium. There is nothing he needs, nothing he desires, and nothing he must or will do. A God who is perfect does nothing except exist. A perfect creator God is impossible.
But, for the sake of argument, let's continue. Let us suppose that this perfect God did create the universe. Humans were the crown of his creation, since they were created in God's image and have the ability to make decisions. However, these humans spoiled the original perfection by choosing to disobey God.
What!? If something is perfect, nothing imperfect can come from it. Someone once said that bad fruit cannot come from a good tree, and yet this "perfect" God created a "perfect" universe which was rendered imperfect by the "perfect" humans. The ultimate source of imperfection is God. What is perfect cannot become imperfect, so humans must have been created imperfect. What is perfect cannot create anything imperfect, so God must be imperfect to have created these imperfect humans. A perfect God who creates imperfect humans is impossible.

[jonodog]

A shame I cannot post links.

[Timq]

[Heavenly2]

There was a knock on my door this morning.
I opened it to find a young man standing there who said:
"Hello Ma'am, I'm a Jehovah's Witness."
I said "Come in and sit down.."
I offered him coffee and asked "What do you want to talk about?"
He said, "Beats the shit out of me, I've never gotten this far before."

[Martyr]

I got same problem they knock to my door every sunday.They always start converacion in same way "do u know what is yours destiny ?" and i always saying u bet i know ^^but once came 2 sweet girls Jehovah's Witness and ask me same question from that moment i statr believe in power of boobs ( . )( . )The truth is people are evil and if there is any God he must be fking blind.